FLIGHT SIMULATION FORUMS

[Dimitris]

Cleared my mind.

Thanks.
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Flight Hours (Real): 0 hrs
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Flight Hours (Sim): To be mentioned

[ilangsfs]

What a great tutorial. Thanks! Answered a lot of my ILS questions.
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[99jolegg]

Glad it helped
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[Gonzy]

Hi! Just learning the details re IFR flights and was really looking for such a tut. Excellent job, thanks! Just one or two question though and maybe some general clarification...

Can all this be set-up in the flight planning stage or does it need to be done in-flight? Would it be safe to assume that on an IFR flight ATC will always mess with your FP by diverting you on given vectors (I get impatient sometimes and speed-up the simulation speed when flying in a straight line)? I noticed when using the AP with it set to track the GPS, it'll pretty much fly the a/c on it's own and you can go get a cup of coffee or something... while tracking via the GPS with everything set-up (ILS or VOR Approach included), is there still a need for pilot input? Finally (I hope), just as a definitive conclusion to something I've been wondering about... the AP won't string NAV1 and NAV2 coordinates together, right? It can only use NAV1 coordinates?

Sorry if the questions are quite noobish and/or if they were already addressed as I'm still really just coming to grips with all this. I hope I didn't go off-topic too much either.

[99jolegg]

[Gonzy]

As usual, very informative advise re GPS usage, thank you. Always wondered how to link the cruise (FP) with the approach, still not totally clear about that but I'm definitely getting there. I tried it once, flight plan all set-up, cruising to the destination airport with AP on (NAV set to GPS) then I think I activated the approach (via the GPS) way to far and the entire FP disappeared, leaving just the approach lines. Further, based on what I've learned in this thread, it puzzles me why you'd set the "vectors to approach" in the GPS during an IFR flight when ATC will overide that anyway, probably limitations to the sim I'm guessing. All these queries stem from what I've gathered in real life re the level of automation (complete in airliners or so I've heard) where the only pilot inputs practically used are within 500/1000 feet to and from the airport. If that's really how it is in real life then I'd like to simulate that as well, just that the boundaries/capabilities of the simulator are still blurry to me at this moment. I'm getting ahead of myself though, flying via the GPS I'll get into probaly a little later on, but it's good to know the basics for now.

Re VOR navigation and it's level of automation, queries are quite parallel to the above plus some practical application. So far looks like I'll be starting my formal real-life training in a month or so and the school I'll be going to doesn't have or use GPS in it's planes, nor AP for that matter. They do have wings and props though, that, I'm sure of. Need to master VOR navigation to help me get ahead a bit in my studies. In that light, I wanted to automate the actual flying as much as I can for now so I can concentrate on the navigation and learning all it's nuances. As you stated: "Some aircraft have two navigational instrument indicators, one slaved to each NAV radio. " I was obviously under the wrong impression that, with such aircraft, if I set both frequencies in a series of waypoints, say from point a to point b to point c, NAV1 controls pts a to b and NAV2, pts b to c, the AP would automatically switch from NAV1 to NAV2 in the said series.

I guess to paint a clearer picture, what I'm trying to achieve is set a flight plan but NOT load it, just print out all the pertinent details needed for the flight (navlog, etc). Then try to navigate the entire flight using only the printed materials. To master the navigational aspect, it would be more convenient to automate the actual flying. Then, when I'm more confident with the whole process, I'll do everything on my own. At this stage, using the GPS is extremely convenient but I'll get to that later, after I'm able to find my way without it.

Hope that clarifies what I'm asking by stating why I'm asking such things. Thanks again in advance!

[99jolegg]

First off, if you are starting real life studies for aviation, I'd suggest you keep it all hand flown. It'll help you understand the theory as well as the flying.

The NAV radio will tune to whatever NAV aid you tune it to. You can tune to the VOR you are tracking, set the OBS and track the radial whilst setting up the second VOR on your flightplan using NAV2. You can then switch the freq in NAV2 to NAV1 or fly off the second VOR indicator once you are tracking the second VOR.

VOR navigation isn't automated in light aircraft, entirely down to the pilot. If you want to get ahead for your studies, learn the basics and then practice the flying. Don't worry about automating it.
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[Gonzy]

HHmmm... that makes sense. So I shouldn't concern myself either with VOR or ILS approaches and just stick to the regular flight pattern approach right? Or maybe at least simple VOR approaches.

Yup, that does make more sense. I let my excitement get the better of me. That's sound real-world advice. Thanks again, completely appreciate it!

[99jolegg]

No, I'm suggesting that you fly using NAV aids but not using the Autopilot to track them. In the real world, you can't use the autopilot to track the VOR in a light aircraft.
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[Gonzy]

Alright man, will do. It's just that long straight flights can get a bit boring but you're correct, should get used to it.

Just flew an IFR flight with an ILS approach. Is it normal for everything to get so hectic with the approach? ATC seemed like they were giving out vectors every 10-15 seconds. Hadn't even finished completing one when the next ones were being given out. Funny thing was in the end they vectored me to a different ILS approach than what I planned and prepared to take. Must be more prepared next time! Took me 3 or 4 missed approaches to get it right. lol!

Pleasure conversing with you once again. Thanks!

[99jolegg]

[Gonzy]

Yes, I have flown VOR to VOR, it's all I've been flying lately since finding out there will be no GPS at the school, I catch the radial/heading by hand then AP set to heading once stabilized but I don't track them precisely after that when they're only waypoints (don't keep VOR pointer aligned perfectly). I even, again for waypoint VOR's with DME's only, don't wait to reach the VOR. I turn to the next one around 10 to 15 nm before getting to it then just compensate my heading a little when rolling out to the next VOR. Sometimes when the a/c has two VOR indicators and the next two VORs have headings that are generally at the same direction then I set a more or less general or average heading between the two. I only precisely track the VOR when it's the final one at the destination airport, sometimes not even if the airport has an NDB.

Am I doing it all wrong? Forming a bad habit perhaps?

By not using ATC, do you mean you set an IFR flightplan but not file it? Sorry for the multitude of questions, I just want to learn all this as fast as I can.

[99jolegg]

[Gonzy]

Ok, I understand the part re high percentage of flights in the real world (flight school at least) will be with no VOR aid. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Re VOR navigation, if available, you're saying that even if I don't use the AP and fly general headings by hand, not precisely tracking the VOR but only averaging, even by hand would be a very bad thing due to the fact that real world VOR indicators act completely different to their sim counterparts in that they are quite erratic?

Regarding you're offer, I'm most definitely interested! Hope I'm not asking too much but could it be tailor-made in that it's set in my country and base of operations?

[99jolegg]

[Gonzy]

Excellent, looking forward to it.

[99jolegg]

I'm not familiar with your area but the basics of VOR navigation remain the same. I'll be back here in a few hours.
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[99jolegg]

Ok, lets think about a route of about 70nm from one airport to a different airport. Between those airports, find some VORs and join them up to form a route. You'll want to find about 3-5 VORs to track. You'll need to fly the C-172.

Once you have found the VORs you are going to use, you'll need to select the radials you want to track. Remember that VOR radials are one way, just like a one way street. You can only fly from the VOR outwards. For example, you are flying east to west at 270 degrees coming up to a VOR. You would track the 270 degree radial...not the 090 degree radial.

Practice using this: http://www.relia.net/~george/aviation/sim/

Once you have your route setup, you can then start the taxiing and flying. Taxi to the active runway following ATC instructions and getting ATIS.

- Take off from the designated runway
- Follow the traffic pattern for that runway, climb out, turn to crosswind and downwind if necessary. Leave the traffic pattern where your route commences.
- Tune the NAV1 radio to the first VOR you are tracking. Listen to the morse code identifier to check you have the correct VOR. Set the OBS to the radial you want to track, the radial you selected for your flight plan.
- Centralise the CDI making correct adjustments by flying 'towards the line'.
- You should be seeing the TO flag if you have selected the right radial. If you have the FROM flag and are flying to a VOR, you have the reciprocal radial and are reverse sensing. When left = right and right = left, you have the potential to get yourself so lost you wouldn't tell what country you are in. Never reverse sense a VOR!
- When you reach the VOR and pass it you have two options:

1) Track a FROM radial by selecting the radial from the same VOR you tracked to.

2) Track the next VOR with the TO flag remembering not to reverse sense.

Keep tracking the VORs until you get towards your airport.

Are you wondering how to get to the airport if it doesn't have a VOR located at the airfield? In the real world, you'll have a sectional chart that allows you to measure distance. On your last VOR before the airfield measure the distance to the airport and on what radial you'll need. When flying, you can then use the DME with the VOR on the FROM flag to find out when you are coming up to the airport. From 10nm out, contact tower, he'll give you IAP (instrument approach) instructions or you can enter the traffic pattern and land.

If you want some more tricks to do with the VOR / DME let me know. You can pinpoint your location by using two VORs, fly VOR approaches and use VOR/DME arcs. I hope that helps.
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[GreekMan72]

This excellent tutorial becomes even better through your discussion Gents.

Thank You
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[EliteCaptain01]

Jon has done an excellent job here - his knowledge of aviation is a real asset to the forums
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