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C-130
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Location: A desert with windows.
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 Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Gonzy.
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Gonzy
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Joined: 18 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| My pleasure man. |
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SirValinor
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Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hi All,
Just joined forums also, and must say learnt a lot from this posting! And also found very usefull other guides on the forum so far. Thank you and keep it up!
Greetings, |
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99jolegg
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Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome to FSF and don't hesitate to ask any questions!
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RadarMan
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Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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I know you will enjoy your stay here.
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SirValinor
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Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| 99jolegg wrote: | | Welcome to FSF and don't hesitate to ask any questions! |
mmmmm How sure are you about that Statement?
Cause i literally just finished another test flight for myself, as being a newb (2 weeks into FSX) still, and tried a ILS landing, 1st set it up via GPS, and it wanted to line me up on 1 of 2 runways, had all my settings correct i think, was rdy for glideslope and hight was right, speed, nav settings correct and all, and then i pressed the APP button andit decided to head for a different runway, but didnt lower the plane as normal, and was at the right heading, just about 1nm to the right of the runway, so decided to abort, and did a fly round, this time using the GPS to line myself up, and for some reason again, i didnt catch the glide slope for some reason.
Should prob add here that I was flying a 747, and trying to land at barajas in madrid, hence you have 2 runways also parallel to each other.
I really seem to struggle so far to get the planes lining up properly with the runways. . . .but i guess practice makes perfect in the end. The more i try and test the better ill get  |
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99jolegg
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Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: |
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I'd suggest you start in a smaller aircraft to understand how the ILS operates. Flying the 747 on a difficult instrument approach is not a good idea.
The traditional ILS approach has nothing to do with the GPS. How are you using the GPS, to line yourself up and then fly using the raw data? Did you have the frequency into NAV1 and the correct CRS setup? What height are you intercepting the glideslope? What speed are you pressing APP at? How stabilised are you on the approach?
Some pointers...
- Make sure your speed is 180 KIAS or less when lining up for the runway.
- Make sure you intercept at 2500-3000ft AAL, maximum.
- Make sure that you have both axes of the ILS (GS and LOC) stabilised before engaging the APP. The APP button is an approach hold button and it does exactly that - it holds the approach that you set, rather than sort out poor airmanship and execute a miracle landing.
- Make sure you disengage the autopilot and autothrust at 200ft AGL or higher.
- Make sure you use flaps incrementally and decrease your speed as you go.
- Vref + 5 = VAPP i.e. a good approach speed. You'll find VREF in the kneeboard.
Practice in a smaller aircraft, without using the autopilot, just flying using the raw ILS data. You'll find you learn so much that the transition to larger jets is easier and more exciting rather than muddling through a poor performance using the autopilot.
Good luck!
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SirValinor
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Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | - Make sure that you have both axes of the ILS (GS and LOC) stabilised before engaging the APP. The APP button is an approach hold button and it does exactly that - it holds the approach that you set, rather than sort out poor airmanship and execute a miracle landing. |
hehe Thx for the quick reply!
According to your tips i think i might have found my mistake! as the part quoted above. . .
Why i used GPS, somewhere i think i read that you can use the GPS to actually help you line your plane up to the runway. Speed was below 180, full flaps at the time, height was on 2700 i think, and had the correct frequency in the NAV 1 at the time. I think i might have misunderstood lots of details before.
I allways thought, the APP is what you use once you get into a certain range of the runway. Cause i have done in the past that i engage the NAV button, and it somehow managed to get my plane lined up correctly to the runway in the missions before, which doesnt make much sence now for me. I guess that was a mistake form the beginning. Cause on a couple of occasions i have done that and the plane alligned itself to the runway. I
n same sence I must be honest, i was using VFR rules instead of IFR, so that would surely also have made a difference in my approach? I guess it become quite confusing after a while trying to learn more in details what goes on. Cause i allways thought that you can use the ILS to kinda help you land the plane using Autopilot, (using the instruments) and not really looking where you going. . . .
So at the end, You allways have to line up the plane manually to the runway? Or is that part of the ILS? And what I should be focussing on for starters i guess, should be lining the plane up more "manually" still using all the correct inputs as i had before, and then as i approach the Glideslope, use the APP to just steady myself after getting myself lined up properly. And then i should get it right better i guess.
Again, thank you for the advice and guidance!!!
Last edited by SirValinor on Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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99jolegg
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Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Start in a Cessna. Set the weather to clear. Line yourself up infront of a runway with an ILS. Tune everything, maintain the correct altitude and watch the localiser and glideslope come alive. Descend according (manually) to the ILS data on the HSI using the visual contact with the runway to confirm what you're doing.
Leave the APP function for now - it's only used in times of marginal weather.
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SirValinor
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Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| 99jolegg wrote: | Start in a Cessna. Set the weather to clear. Line yourself up infront of a runway with an ILS. Tune everything, maintain the correct altitude and watch the localiser and glideslope come alive. Descend according (manually) to the ILS data on the HSI using the visual contact with the runway to confirm what you're doing.
Leave the APP function for now - it's only used in times of marginal weather. |
Thx,. will give it a try when i get back from holidays hehe,
Changed my post a little as i think i might have gotten myself a bit confused over time, and need to read up again some more, and then follow your advice and take the cessna and have a look, and learn from it! |
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99jolegg
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Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Good luck!
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slamshedida
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: help me |
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hey there i followed that tutorial but i failed in the landing , im flying boeing 737 , @ 2500 ft and speed of 180 , and im lined with the runway , and set everything like tutorial , the problem is @ 10 nm i press APP button while my ALT and speed are at HOLD , but the airplane doesnt descend and the autopilot doesn't switch off the " ALT" button .
what am i doing wrong ?? thnx alot guys. |
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99jolegg
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Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Is the localiser alive? Try waiting until you are closer to the threshold. At 10nm the glideslope won't be alive or close to becoming alive.
Try 5 miles, that's still outside the outer marker and a time at which descent will start or will have just started.
Let us know how you get on, and welcome to FSF!
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Bindolaf
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Joined: 03 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Hi. At 10nm you should be picking up the ILS (which means you must have both NAV1 and NAV2 tuned to the ILS frequency and both CRS should show the ILS track).
Be at around 3000 ft AGL and I suppose 180 KIAS is ok, with flaps 5. First, when the localizer comes alive, hot VORLOC (or LOC). This will align the aircraft laterally. When that's done (ideally) keep going until the vertical indicator (glideslope) starts descending (the purple dot). Then hit APP. The aircraft will now descend with the glideslope. Make sure you manage your speed - Vref is probably around 135-145 knots.
Let us know!
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slamshedida
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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sorry it didnt work either , im @ 2500 feet , speed 175 , flaps 5 , the DME is 26.2 miles and i got the 2 purple magneta are centered with flight director cross , and i got my speed , ALT , NAV set HOLD by the autopilot .
suddenly @ 21.3 miles , the vertical purple magneta goes down to the end . isnt that where i suppose to switch on my APP button ?
i did that and it didnt start 2 descend and the ALT button was not disengaged .
what do i do ?? thnx |
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99jolegg
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Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Wait until closer to the airfield.
If the vertical bug shoots to the bottom then you're too high on the profile, in this case, you need to maintain altitude until you intercept the G/S.
APP is an approach hold button. Therefore you need to set the approach up and begin to fly it before activating the approach hold function. It will not source the LOC and GS for you and fly the miracle approach. Things work slightly differently in payware aircraft and the use of APP but in default aircraft, you need to have the LOC centered and the GS alive.
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Bindolaf
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Joined: 03 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 26.2 miles and i got the 2 purple magneta are centered with flight director cross , and i got my speed , ALT , NAV set HOLD by the autopilot .
suddenly @ 21.3 miles , the vertical purple magneta goes down to the end . isnt that where i suppose to switch on my APP button ?
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26 miles is way too far. Wait till you're at around 12-15 at the most. If you're at 3000 AGL you're fine at 10 miles. Remember you need to use LOC *first*, otherwise APP will probably not work (not sure with freeware). So you approach the runway course at no more than 30 degrees off and use VORLOC (or LOC). Then, when the magenta dot starts to come down, you hit APP.
Example: The runway is 24, the ILS freq. is 109.100 and the track 239
You need to:
0) Be at 3000 AGL and around 20 miles from the runway - not more.
1) Tune both radios (NAV1 and NAV2) to 109.100 and turn the CRS buttons to 239
2) Approach the runway from 210, 220, 230, 240, 250, 260, 270 degrees not sharper than that.
3) When the loaclizer comes alive (the runway bar starts moving) hit LOC (or VORLOC)
4) The plane will stabilize on the localizer. Lights on the A/P will be: ALT, SPD, VORLOC
5) When the magenta dot starts coming down, you hit the APP button. The aircraft will descend with the localizer. Manage speed!
Obviously the autopilot and flight director need to be on.
Let us know!
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99jolegg
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Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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One crucial question I forgot to ask, do you have NAV/GPS switch on NAV? This is crucial for default aircraft and could well be your problem.
| Bindolaf wrote: | | Remember you need to use LOC *first*, otherwise APP will probably not work (not sure with freeware). So you approach the runway course at no more than 30 degrees off and use VORLOC (or LOC). |
Doesn't work like that for default aircraft, either.
Therefore point 3 should read:
- When the loaclizer comes alive (the runway bar starts moving) hit APP or APR (depending on the aircraft) but actually you should wait a bit later because the localiser is never established through the MCP so wait until you center it manually.
And point 4 should read:
- The plane will stabilize on the localizer. Lights on the A/P will be: ALT, SPD and APP / APR.
And ignore point 5 because that will exist in the delayed point 3.
Maybe if you tell us which aircraft you're flying (payware, freeware or default) the advice can be more specific.
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slamshedida
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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@ 99jolegg:
its switched to NAV. , im using a boeing 737 ( default). |
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99jolegg
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Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Then I'd suggest following the original guide - while Bindolaf's tips are helpful for payware aircraft with more complex MCP systems, only points 0, 1 and 2 are strictly valid for default aircraft.
Make sure you are close to the airfield - around 10nm or less is perfect. Like I said, it is an approach hold function not an approach seek, track and hold function. What airfield are you flying to? What runway?
Maybe some screenshots might help us diagnose the problem?
For the moment, it sounds like you're engaging the APP function too early without even having the runway in sight, assuming you're in VMC and just practicing. The fact that the aircraft doesn't deviate also suggests this.
Try centering everything yourself (LOC and G/S) and engaging the APP function - there is no reason why that should not work.
Good luck!
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